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  • SCC Suspension Test

    In this months issue of Sport Compact Car they did a suspension shootout with an S2000. They said the results could be applied to any car though. They tested Moton, JIC, Buddy Club, KW, Tein, and a bunch of others. The lap times were relativley close between most of the brands and they even said the the JICs were more comfortable than stock on the street. This contradicts just about everything I've heard about the JDM garbage coilovers and thier harsh, bouncy ride quality. Apparantley, the quality has greatly improved since the last time they tested them and the japaneese brands are "moving in the right direction." There are shock dynos in the article but I know nothing about reading them. Has anyone seen this article and can comment on thier results from an experienced point of view? All I know about suspension is what I've read on this forum.

  • #2
    I haven't read it, but I heard it was pretty vague. Off-scale dyno plots and such. I'll have to look for it, though.

    Comment


    • #3
      Yeah... It was pretty vague. They kept the scales the same but left off labels for 'confidentiality.' the testing was done on all different cars with different mods but they were all pretty similar. One thing they really should have done is specify a chasis. They had both ap1s and ap2s competing. Its not the track times that bother me so much anyway. Its thier comfort ratings that have me confused. Coilovers generally arent more comfortable than stock... Then again ive never been in an s 2000.

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      • #4
        I would've thought they'd use one car and swap coilovers onto it for testing. Tons of variables come into play with different cars. A car will change dramatically with changes in:
        -tire size
        -tire compound
        -tire pressure
        -alignment (caster/camber/toe)
        -ride height (alignment?)

        Comment


        • #5
          hooray, I guess my SCC will be in the mail any day.

          I've driven a friend's S2000 with the stock sus and with some Tein something-er-other coilovers (and Weds SA-90's with RE-01R's). The stock S2000 rides pretty firm. The Tein's are firmer (with his damping settings) but the ride is easily manageable for a daily driver.

          A couple things to note here:
          - The S2000 chassis is on a completely different level in terms of ridigity. Chassis stiffness IS a factor in ride quality. I read a couple papers on it a while back. Something about the ratio of the suspension spring rate to the chassis spring rate.

          - No one drifts S2000's. No one grips S13/S14 (this is a generalization). Therefore it is reasonable to assume, nearly a certainty, that a given suspension manufacturer is going to gear their product to the vehicle's likely use. This relates too the next item...

          - Case in point: Bilstein PSS9 availability: S2000, yes. 350Z, yes. STi, yes. EVO, yes. Lots of german stuff, yes. S13/S14/S15, hell no. I'm not going to sack-ride a product that I've never even seen before, but PSS9's get great reviews for both grip and ride on all of these platforms. Note that none of them are really viable drift platforms, but all are common track/grip cars. I found an old SCC from 2000 that advertises PSS9's, too. So it's not like they haven't gotten around to it.

          - I've got JIC's (FLT-A1) and I think my car rides like hell on anything that's not new asphalt. But, it's still better than most of the other coilovers that I've ridden on. This is mainly Tein and the chinese knockoff brands. Mine are the the -US version which are valved differently than the original version. I've run both sets, new, on my car. So manufacturers are catching on. The car just had to be out of production for a decade before they figured it out.
          She's built like a Steakhouse, but she handles like a Bistro.

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          • #6
            PSS9's are pretty decent, if a bit restricted in some ways(like lowering the car too much). They're very common for M3s, yet most people still go with Ground Control + Konis because they are a bit faster, and generally can go lower(shortened housings up front and rear are common).

            As for lap times being almost identical between VASTLY different market segments of coilovers, I'd say it either comes down to using some relatively mundane tires that aren't very hard to drive at their limit, or it comes down to the driver always driving at what they feel comfortable going at.

            I'm sure I could make all sorts of changes on my car suspension wise and probably still lap about the same time as long as I thought the car was reasonably drivable, put Michael Schumacher in my car, and it's going to go WAY faster, and will likely show big differences when you start monkeying with stuff.
            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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            • #7
              I had PSS9's on my Miata and IF you car is not a BALLS OUT race car, they are tough as hell to beat. Comfy on the street, good at AX/track

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Def View Post
                I'm sure I could make all sorts of changes on my car suspension wise and probably still lap about the same time as long as I thought the car was reasonably drivable, put Michael Schumacher in my car, and it's going to go WAY faster, and will likely show big differences when you start monkeying with stuff.
                That's a good point, but it also brings up a question. For amateur racers like myself, does it worth going through the trouble of sourcing all the hardwares to get a Koni and GC setup, instead of Ksport or other OTS products?

                For a while, I have just been thinking that I should just get a new car and run it stock, so that I can concentrate on my driving.

                To be honest, I don't think I will get faster with a better setup, but it will probably "feel" better.

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                • #9
                  Even though the times might initially be similar, it doesn't mean you can't learn to adapt to higher limits or other handling characteristics. I'd think it'd be better to learn on a car that's built more towards the application, rather than attempt to learn new things while accepting and working around performance "quirks".

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                  • #10
                    I have 2 things to point out after reading your responses. The tire sizes were free but they all used a specific continental tire and were all driven by the same person.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rockdrummer027 View Post
                      I have 2 things to point out after reading your responses. The tire sizes were free but they all used a specific continental tire and were all driven by the same person.
                      But if all the cars are different, then it completely invalidates the test. You could have a really crappy setup on Motons and an exceptional setup on Teins, which doesn't really prove anything, other than the knowledge/budget of whoever built the car.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vw_nissan View Post
                        That's a good point, but it also brings up a question. For amateur racers like myself, does it worth going through the trouble of sourcing all the hardwares to get a Koni and GC setup, instead of Ksport or other OTS products?

                        For a while, I have just been thinking that I should just get a new car and run it stock, so that I can concentrate on my driving.

                        To be honest, I don't think I will get faster with a better setup, but it will probably "feel" better.
                        I had K-Sports and took them to the track a few times, them plus most the other "Taiwain/China" coilovers are all about the same - essentially scary when trying to either get the compression or rebound "close enough" since one or the other is bound to be off over quite a large range of piston speeds. You take the damping down so things don't go ape**** over a bump, and the car is floating around with almost no low speed damping. You get the low speed at least in the general ballpark(and that's being generous), and the high speed stuff sends the car skittering over the tiniest bump.

                        My car was hard as hell to keep from locking the inside front under braking over a little bit of wavy pavement at TWS and Road Atlanta for that matter. The wheel was either suffering from too much or not enough damping, both of which don't allow the tires to effectively stay in contact with the road and control chassis movement under transitions.


                        With just 8611s up front it feels worlds more controllable and easy to drive.

                        I think the point I'm trying to make is that the average amateur will see a huge benefit of the car being more controllable and predictable once you get a "good base" - say maybe Koni yellows and some reasonable spring rates like 350/280. You get a little faster by going to nicer dampers, a little more aggressive on the springs, but after a certain point you're right, there isn't much to be gained. Going with something like Jason Rhoades blingtastic Koni 28 series custom setup probably isn't going to gain you much over some 8611s assuming equal amounts of setup time. Going from some K-Sports/Megan/Stance/KTS/Tein etc. to something good like a Koni 861x or even some Koni yellows is worth a huge amount to the amateur when it comes to confidence. This directly translates to quicker learning and more speed... and it's honestly safer out on the track.
                        '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                        DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                        http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Def View Post
                          I had K-Sports and took them to the track a few times, them plus most the other "Taiwain/China" coilovers are all about the same - essentially scary when trying to either get the compression or rebound "close enough" since one or the other is bound to be off over quite a large range of piston speeds. You take the damping down so things don't go ape**** over a bump, and the car is floating around with almost no low speed damping. You get the low speed at least in the general ballpark(and that's being generous), and the high speed stuff sends the car skittering over the tiniest bump.

                          My car was hard as hell to keep from locking the inside front under braking over a little bit of wavy pavement at TWS and Road Atlanta for that matter. The wheel was either suffering from too much or not enough damping, both of which don't allow the tires to effectively stay in contact with the road and control chassis movement under transitions.


                          With just 8611s up front it feels worlds more controllable and easy to drive.

                          I think the point I'm trying to make is that the average amateur will see a huge benefit of the car being more controllable and predictable once you get a "good base" - say maybe Koni yellows and some reasonable spring rates like 350/280. You get a little faster by going to nicer dampers, a little more aggressive on the springs, but after a certain point you're right, there isn't much to be gained. Going with something like Jason Rhoades blingtastic Koni 28 series custom setup probably isn't going to gain you much over some 8611s assuming equal amounts of setup time. Going from some K-Sports/Megan/Stance/KTS/Tein etc. to something good like a Koni 861x or even some Koni yellows is worth a huge amount to the amateur when it comes to confidence. This directly translates to quicker learning and more speed... and it's honestly safer out on the track.

                          I am with Def on this one.

                          I bought my car with KYB AGX's. I did a HPDE 2 weeks after I bought the car with the AGX's. They were "OK". The next HPDE I had my Koni's/GC's, NIGHT AND DAY difference.

                          I don't see what's so "hard" about getting the Koni/GC setup

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by ecugrad View Post
                            I am with Def on this one.

                            I bought my car with KYB AGX's. I did a HPDE 2 weeks after I bought the car with the AGX's. They were "OK". The next HPDE I had my Koni's/GC's, NIGHT AND DAY difference.

                            I don't see what's so "hard" about getting the Koni/GC setup
                            I think the "younger" crowd is really drawn to the "look how slammed my car is" pictures on zilvia, and they're naturally drawn to that. I think I'm a bit inbetween the "young" and "super old" crowd age-wise, so I reserve the right to talk in general terms like that.


                            ...and really... an extra few hundred bucks on your suspension system should not be a huge deal breaker if you're building an even somewhat "nice" car that's meant to go fast.
                            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rockdrummer027 View Post
                              I have 2 things to point out after reading your responses. The tire sizes were free but they all used a specific continental tire and were all driven by the same person.
                              Who was the driver?

                              I still think there's something a bit fishy about this test.
                              '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                              DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                              http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

                              Comment

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