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KA24DE crankshaft oil holes?

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  • KA24DE crankshaft oil holes?

    Really I just got tired of seeing "billet timing tab" as the last post

    Somewhere along the line I read something about the KA crankshaft not having fully drilled oil holes in one or more of the main journals (#3 maybe?) The thought re-surfaced while reading a thread about a bored/stroked Porsche 928 where the guy replaced the OEM crank with a Moldex unit. He went into some detail about crank oil holes generally and the differences between the Porsche crank and the Moldex crank specifically.
    Don Johnson (really!)
    Just so you know.

  • #2
    Ask one of the guys from AMS that build the KA race blocks and stuff.
    SM 63 KA-t 470hp 480tq G30-660 A2W IC

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    • #3
      I read on Scat's website that cross drilling oil holes (as is discussed and recommended on several other forums) is not in the best interest for your motor.

      http://www.scatcrankshafts.com/catalogs/2009/73-80.pdf

      page 5 or 6 "what is cross drilling"
      I am SKULLWORKS

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      • #4
        FWIW I was recently talking to a local sprint car guy who has been running KA24DE's for several years.

        13:1 CR, 9000 rpm, Alcohol with mechanical injection, 250 HP.

        He said he is using the stock crank with no special prep to the oil galleys or oiling system (not sure if it is dry sump or not) and it lasts for 20+ races.

        Apparently the secret to 9000 RPM KA's is Ed Pink crank bearings (very difficult to find) with aftermarket rods and pistons.
        The Nerd shall inherit the podium for knowledge is power.

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        • #5
          The secret to any high RPM motor is in fact bearing clearances and oil pressures you are correct, maintaining film thickness at those speeds becomes crucial, the easy fix (sort of) is smaller journals

          Im not sure Ed's bearings per se are the answer, (as i know he doesn't make them) but the sizing of the bearings and the attention paid there-to

          Most shops can't gauge the oil clearances to +/- .0001in and that's the minimum accuracy I'd bolt a motor together with.
          I am SKULLWORKS

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          • #6
            I'm just happy I finally got a discussion started about something useful!
            Don Johnson (really!)
            Just so you know.

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            • #7
              Reading into this thread and wanting to be active for my own build, I went ahead and embarassed myself by e-mailing ed pink engineering....

              Billy,
              Thank you for the crankshaft inquiry.
              While we did design and produce a run of billet crankshafts for the Nissan Motorosports corporate off-road race program that did run the truck version KA24DE engine, we do not produce crankshafts in small volumes (2) or at a cheap cost point ($1,800). I would suggest you pursue your current quote, but also manage your expectations for quality.
              Good luck with your engine project,
              EPRE
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Billy Ma
              To: [email protected]
              Sent: Monday, May 24, 2010 9:36 PM
              Subject: ka24de billet crankshaft

              Hi
              I am a member of the Nissan altima community and I’d like to speak for myself as well as one fellow member of our club. We are interested in fully counterweighted, billet crankshafts. My application would be for Track racing, where as his application is for Drag. An approximate price would be great as to the cost of the component. We are looking at stock bore, as we already have pistons and rods. I would prefer a knife edged crank.

              If a quotation can be given, then I would have something to work towards.

              As of right now I have 9:1 CP pistons .20 bore w/ Pauter Rods.
              The head as of right now is Ported and polished with a 3-angle valve work + new valves, guides, springs.
              I have an ATI super damper with a H21 Flywheel + ACT clutch, and 6-puke sprung pressure plate

              The CS is the most significant piece before I can get my rotating assembly dynamically balanced so I must inquire all possibilities. As of now, BC has quoted 1800 for a custom crank, knifed edged rate at 2100.

              Thanks
              Check out my all wheel drive altima blog

              http://awdu13.wordpress.com

              - Billy

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Umai Kakudo View Post
                FWIW I was recently talking to a local sprint car guy who has been running KA24DE's for several years.

                13:1 CR, 9000 rpm, Alcohol with mechanical injection, 250 HP.

                He said he is using the stock crank with no special prep to the oil galleys or oiling system (not sure if it is dry sump or not) and it lasts for 20+ races.

                Apparently the secret to 9000 RPM KA's is Ed Pink crank bearings (very difficult to find) with aftermarket rods and pistons.
                Is it possbile to find out what crank pulley he used on the sprint car engine and if it was indeed dry sump? Thanks.
                NASA Time Trials TT3


                BTW I work for Garrett

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                • #9
                  ARE makes a dry sump pan for the KA-E. not sure if it's same as KA-DE.

                  Crower does make a fully counterweight crank and they're about $1800 or so.

                  As for the crankshaft oil holes, I have an email somewhere about the KA-E crank and the holes were actually in pretty much the right spot and the right size to do what needed to be done. Don't know how much different the DE crank is, but I'd figure Nissan didn't go backwards on the oiling between the engines.
                  Originally posted by SoSideways
                  I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                  '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                  '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Matt93SE View Post
                    ARE makes a dry sump pan for the KA-E. not sure if it's same as KA-DE.

                    Crower does make a fully counterweight crank and they're about $1800 or so.

                    As for the crankshaft oil holes, I have an email somewhere about the KA-E crank and the holes were actually in pretty much the right spot and the right size to do what needed to be done. Don't know how much different the DE crank is, but I'd figure Nissan didn't go backwards on the oiling between the engines.
                    I have looked into this a little and here's what I've found;



                    The E pans and crankshafts don't fit the DE blocks because of the difference in oil pump setups.

                    If you want a DE motor with the E-style oil pump, the late model Frontier DE motors had the E-style cam-driven oil pump instead of the DE-style crank-driven oil pump. That's the only way to get that combination without custom made pieces, and you can use the E-style aftermarket oil pans as well.

                    I have read that the E-style oil pumps are more subject to breaking drive spindles from harmonics if not used with a good harmonic balancer. I've also looked at a couple of SCCA GT3 class KA24E motors and they're running dry sump and no harmonic balancer at all!
                    Don Johnson (really!)
                    Just so you know.

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                    • #11
                      hmmmm... the KA-Es I've seen around here all have hamonic balancers on them..... I wouldn't recommend running without, but if you've got the budget for a $15,000 engine every few races, then go right ahead.
                      Originally posted by SoSideways
                      I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                      '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                      '96 240SX- The Track Toy

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                      • #12
                        Now I'm no expert, but I have done a good bit of research on high rpms and the NA KA. From what I can gather, everyone talks about how 8000 and 9000rpm's are possible, but there is no solid evidence to point towards a reliable engine at this speed.

                        There was/is a member on freshalloy "Greaser" that spun his NA KA past 7500rpms and bent the crank. This was after a fresh rebuild with forged pistons and rods. He was/is making about 225whp with dynographs to prove it. Here's the thread he broke 200whp in: http://forums.freshalloy.com/showthread.php?t=177042

                        I'm pretty sure the KA doesn't deal well with high rpms (past 7500) unless you have a full-counter crank and mess with the rod ratio.

                        Now, can we stop repeating all this internet puke?
                        Support innovation, buy from companies that design their own parts!

                        Friends don't let friends buy knock-offs.

                        Suspension before power.

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                        • #13
                          I race an S13 SX in E Prod. As other members of this forum can attest, I have had oiling issues and put the no. 2 rod through the block three separate times. Here is what I have found, and it may not be the best answer for everyone but so far it has worked for me.

                          1) recognize the limitations of the motor. in my case I have to run a 3 valve engine. first and foremost, this is a long stroke motor designed to produce torque. so all of my modifications have been to increase mid-range torque. I have no idea what the engine will turn, I limit it to just over 6 grand.

                          2) when I purchased the car it had a barely adequate dry sump system on it. I know nothing about the factory oiling system, it might do just fine. Working with Gary Armstrong at ARE I have upgraded the pump and a few of the line sizes. Even at idle with 230°F oil (right off the track) I have 55 psig of oil pressure. I can't say enough nice things about Gary and ARE. Always fair in his pricing, always has the parts in stock, and relatively available when I call. (as much as a small business owner can be available) With that said, I wouldn't put a DS system on a street car or weekend track car. Get you a good wet sump pan and a windage tray and you'll be fine. I believe Gary can help you with a wet sump pan, too.

                          3) stock Nissan cranks have the oil holes drilled in the correct clock point locations. I spoke with an engineer at Ricardo (automotive consulting) and sent him photos of the stock Nissan crank. (I have a friend a Ricardo and he got me in touch with the PHD engineer who works in their crank department in England)

                          4) I run stock main bearings and the Nissan Motorsports (Ed Pink) rod bearings. I see NMS sells coated mains and rod bearings, now. Who knows, that might be even better.

                          5) I use an ATI damper. It lasts about a year of racing and then I send it in to be rebuilt. ATI was upfront before I purchased the damper and told me it would last about a year. they were correct. I'm sure there are other brands that would work just fine. The main thing is to give them a chance and tell them what you have exactly. I could live with rebuilding the damper once a year on the race car. Obviously, this would not be practical on a street vehicle.

                          Feel free to post any other questions, I'll try to tell you what I've done and what worked for me. It's taken me over three years to make a reliable racing KA 3 valve that doesn't suffer with oiling issues.

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                          • #14
                            Just curious, how much does an ATI damper rebuild cost? I know RB26DETT guys run them on the street all the time, but didn't realize they needed to be rebuilt that often.

                            As an aside, the Speed World Challenge BMWs would run a 3" air hose to the stock harmonic damper to cool it off. All that vibration absorption creates a ton of heat in the rubber/elastomer, and it needs to get cooled down.
                            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

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                            • #15
                              From their website : • Street / Strip (Up to 800 HP) drag use should be checked every 10 years. Sportsman drag race engines subject the damper to low total cycles at intermittent intervals. Elastomer in all units 6" and larger diameter dampers should be checked every 10 years.

                              3 Valve? so two intake and a oversized exaust valve?

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