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  • NA KA24DE tuning...

    Anyone on here have experience tuning an NA KA24DE with simple bolt-on mods (intake, catless exhaust, stock cams)? I understand there isn't a ton of extra peak power to be gained on an NA KA from tuning, but based on talking with some people it seems there is a supposed 20+/- hp to be gained in the 5800-6500rpm range since the stock tune power/torque falls off so sharply due to very conservative fuel enrichment (possibly in the 10.1:1-10.5:1 AFR range toward 6500). Optimal NA AFR's are typically in the 12:1-12.5:1 range, correct?

    Not sure how much the timing advance map can be manipulated for reliable power, but for sure trimming the fuel can add reliable power while increasing fuel efficiency.

    Perhaps someone is gracious enough to share their .BIN file, but I know the chances are slim since no one seems to care much about NA KA's these days....

    Anyway, any input would be appreciated.
    Core4 Motorsports
    CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
    S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

  • #2
    • TWIN CAM MOTOR FROM A ’93 240SX
    • ENGINE BORED .040” OVERSIZE (STOCK INTERNALS)
    • JWT CAM GEARS W/ EXHAUST CAM RETARDED 5 DEGREES
    • INJEN SHORT RAM INTAKE W/ K&N CONE FILTER
    • NISMO MOTOR/TRANSMISSION MOUNTS
    • EMISSIONS EQUIPMENT/ EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION REMOVED
    • ELECTRIC RADIATOR FAN
    • JIM WOLF TECHNOLOGY ECU (ENGINE COMPUTER)
    • HOT-SHOT EXHAUST HEADER
    • RANDOM-FLOW CAT
    • 2.5” MEGAN RACING EXHAUST
    • FIDANZA LIGHTWEIGHT FLYWHEEL
    • CENTERFORCE COUNTER-WEIGHTED CLUTCH
    • EBAY SHORT SHIFTER
    • NISMO CLUTCH TYPE LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL
    • A’pexi NEO and S14 MAF
    • 1 piece aluminum driveshaft

    and a ****load of timing advance.

    Best dyno was 168rwhp with the stock intake manifold, less swirl butterflies, and it still had a nice flat torque curve. I've been told by someone that knows, that with stock block engines where you can't increase compression, you can make power with ignition advance, as long as you give it lots of fuel to prevent detonation. Increasing the cam overlap only moved the peak HP up about 200rpm, but it did breathe easier near the top and didn't die off as dramatically.
    Don Johnson (really!)
    Just so you know.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by djsilver View Post
      • TWIN CAM MOTOR FROM A ’93 240SX
      • ENGINE BORED .040” OVERSIZE (STOCK INTERNALS)
      • JWT CAM GEARS W/ EXHAUST CAM RETARDED 5 DEGREES
      • INJEN SHORT RAM INTAKE W/ K&N CONE FILTER
      • NISMO MOTOR/TRANSMISSION MOUNTS
      • EMISSIONS EQUIPMENT/ EXHAUST GAS RECIRCULATION REMOVED
      • ELECTRIC RADIATOR FAN
      • JIM WOLF TECHNOLOGY ECU (ENGINE COMPUTER)
      • HOT-SHOT EXHAUST HEADER
      • RANDOM-FLOW CAT
      • 2.5” MEGAN RACING EXHAUST
      • FIDANZA LIGHTWEIGHT FLYWHEEL
      • CENTERFORCE COUNTER-WEIGHTED CLUTCH
      • EBAY SHORT SHIFTER
      • NISMO CLUTCH TYPE LIMITED SLIP DIFFERENTIAL
      • A’pexi NEO and S14 MAF
      • 1 piece aluminum driveshaft

      and a ****load of timing advance.

      Best dyno was 168rwhp with the stock intake manifold, less swirl butterflies, and it still had a nice flat torque curve. I've been told by someone that knows, that with stock block engines where you can't increase compression, you can make power with ignition advance, as long as you give it lots of fuel to prevent detonation. Increasing the cam overlap only moved the peak HP up about 200rpm, but it did breathe easier near the top and didn't die off as dramatically.
      Thanks for sharing! Are you still running this setup? Can you share the dyno plot if you still have it? I'm curious about the powerband and AFR. Even though I have no plans for going with JWT cams (maybe 248/248 OEM cams), the 5 degree retarding on the exhaust cam is JWT's recommendation?

      I also have all emissions removed, no butterfly valves, clutch fan deleted, as well as power steering deleted. No headers, but an S14 primary exhaust manifold to a 3" SR20DET catless Megan Turboback.

      So you have a JWT ECU specific to your setup and you use the NEO to adjust fuel a little more? When you say a ****load of timing advance, do you mean base timing at the distributor or actual timing advance map adjustments in the JWT ECU? Do you have the means to get the .bin file off the JWT ECU AND be willing to share it?? If not, understandable.

      Thanks again.
      Core4 Motorsports
      CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
      S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

      Comment


      • #4
        It's an off the shelf tune for the KA24DE, so I don't know what it includes. For timing, I just twisted the distributor until it quit making more power, then backed it up a tad. I have a scan of the dyno but I'll have to host it first to link it here. I got the NEO to tune around the different voltage ranges of the S13 and S14 MAF's, but did use it to smooth out the AFR's. After the dyno, I ran a wideband just to keep out of trouble. It's an autocross car, but I did do a few track days with it. It's not enough to scare anyone, but a nice, fairly linear power delivery. I tried the 2.5" against the 3" exhaust on the dyno, but there was no difference, despite all the the fanboi's. I figure low 190's at the crank. You could do better with a custom tune and a more aggressive intake manifold. I don't have any idea whether the tune can be extracted from the JWT, or how to do it. I heard he encrypts his tunes. The guy that ran PDM-racing claimed about 15 more than mine made with a custom tune, but he's out of business I think. There's a guy tuning Nissan ECU's for the ITA & ITS' club racers, but I'll have to try and dig up his info. I'm running stock S13 cams and never tried the 248/248 trick. Just an FYI, when most American cam makers give duration values, it's at .050" lift. I don't know the standard for metric cam's but I've degree'd my stock cams and the Nissan specs are at first bump on the dial indicator. If they were degree'd at .050", or 1mm (.040"), the numbers would be much more conservative.
        Don Johnson (really!)
        Just so you know.

        Comment


        • #5
          The idea of the cam timing came from a discussion about the differences in behavior of the KA24DE is certain year models of Altimas. The 240sx version had 3 degrees of overlap. The 93-95 Altima had 7 degrees and was said to rev easier. I added 5 degrees to total 8 degrees of overlap and it did rev much easier and not drop off a cliff as badly as with stock timing. Anecdotal stories are that the 94 240sx (convertible only) at 7 degrees, but I don't have any proof, I have noticed that the early S13's had two solenoids on the back of the head and some of the late S13's only had one.
          Don Johnson (really!)
          Just so you know.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by djsilver View Post
            It's an off the shelf tune for the KA24DE, so I don't know what it includes. For timing, I just twisted the distributor until it quit making more power, then backed it up a tad. I have a scan of the dyno but I'll have to host it first to link it here. I got the NEO to tune around the different voltage ranges of the S13 and S14 MAF's, but did use it to smooth out the AFR's. After the dyno, I ran a wideband just to keep out of trouble. It's an autocross car, but I did do a few track days with it. It's not enough to scare anyone, but a nice, fairly linear power delivery. I tried the 2.5" against the 3" exhaust on the dyno, but there was no difference, despite all the the fanboi's. I figure low 190's at the crank. You could do better with a custom tune and a more aggressive intake manifold. I don't have any idea whether the tune can be extracted from the JWT, or how to do it. I heard he encrypts his tunes. The guy that ran PDM-racing claimed about 15 more than mine made with a custom tune, but he's out of business I think. There's a guy tuning Nissan ECU's for the ITA & ITS' club racers, but I'll have to try and dig up his info. I'm running stock S13 cams and never tried the 248/248 trick. Just an FYI, when most American cam makers give duration values, it's at .050" lift. I don't know the standard for metric cam's but I've degree'd my stock cams and the Nissan specs are at first bump on the dial indicator. If they were degree'd at .050", or 1mm (.040"), the numbers would be much more conservative.
            Gotcha....So do you have any idea what your AFR is? I always use photobucket for forum picture hosting. Works like a charm.

            I doubt JWT's ECU's are encrypted. Sounds like an urban legend to me. He more than likely daughterboard's all these ECUs with EPROMs, just like Nismotronic, or Nistune, and even DIY solutions from Moates.net (http://www.moates.net/nissan-19861995-c-68.html).

            All you need to upload the .bin file is a Consult plug interface (http://www.obdinnovations.com/nissan...i-ft232r-chip/) and some kind of consult software, like Nissan Data Scan 1 (www.nissandatascan.com) or ECUTalk (http://www.ecutalk.com/). ECUTalk is completely free. NDS1 can be used a few times before registering (<$50), but it's a little more powerful where you can datalog all sensors in conjunction with an aftermarket Innovate wideband O2 sensor. Both should be able to read the .bin and save a copy to your computer. I'd love to try and see if JWT ECU's are really encrypted, but more importantly, what he's actually doing in his tune (especially with ignition timing advance).

            If you can remember who that guy is who tunes for the club racers, please do share his contact info. I'd love to pick his brain!
            Core4 Motorsports
            CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
            S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

            Comment


            • #7
              I personally would much rather run normal timing advance with 13.0-13.3:1 N/A AFRs rather than dumping fuel to keep temps/det under control due to too much advance. I've seen way too many motors blow up from that. N/A and boosted.

              I personally would just jump to a set of 256 or 264 cams. for the price of BC Cams and degreeing them with JWT gears I wouldn't bother with dual 248's unless you were building this as a budget type. RPM's & Flow is where power is to be made if displacement can't be changed. For KA's you can only bore 1-1.5mm. 2mm if you like playing with fire.

              Comment


              • #8
                With the long stroke of the KA, RPM is also the quick ticket to spun bearings and windowed blocks. Keep it under 7000rpm if you want it to live long and prosper.
                Originally posted by SoSideways
                I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                '96 240SX- The Track Toy

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by KA240SX808 View Post
                  I personally would much rather run normal timing advance with 13.0-13.3:1 N/A AFRs rather than dumping fuel to keep temps/det under control due to too much advance. I've seen way too many motors blow up from that. N/A and boosted.

                  I personally would just jump to a set of 256 or 264 cams. for the price of BC Cams and degreeing them with JWT gears I wouldn't bother with dual 248's unless you were building this as a budget type. RPM's & Flow is where power is to be made if displacement can't be changed. For KA's you can only bore 1-1.5mm. 2mm if you like playing with fire.
                  Yes, I was under the impression that aggressive timing is usually what grenades motors so I don't want to gamble much with that. But, isn't 13.0-13.3:1 a little on the lean side, or are you saying that KA's like to be in the range based on experience? I thought ~12.5:1 is the typical max power NA AFR range.

                  As for cams, this is a budget type build. Not even sure I'm going to bother with the 248/248.

                  Originally posted by Matt93SE
                  With the long stroke of the KA, RPM is also the quick ticket to spun bearings and windowed blocks. Keep it under 7000rpm if you want it to live long and prosper.
                  Totally. Taking it that high feels so harsh and makes a whole lot of noise without going anywhere. I really just want to decrease the sharply declining power slope after peak power is made, the 5800-6500rpm range. If I can get a couple extra peak ponies, all the better.
                  Core4 Motorsports
                  CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
                  S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by gills View Post
                    Yes, I was under the impression that aggressive timing is usually what grenades motors so I don't want to gamble much with that. But, isn't 13.0-13.3:1 a little on the lean side, or are you saying that KA's like to be in the range based on experience? I thought ~12.5:1 is the typical max power NA AFR range.

                    As for cams, this is a budget type build. Not even sure I'm going to bother with the 248/248.
                    The 248/248 really opens up the top end. The car felt like a slug before I did the swap on my car.

                    13:1 is fine on an NA car. When I spoke with JWT a while back, they said they'd shoot for 13, 13.5 if you wanted the last couple horses and had a good cooling system and knock-monitoring ECU.
                    Originally posted by SoSideways
                    I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                    '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                    '96 240SX- The Track Toy

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      13:1 is ok on an NA car, but I wouldn't go too much leaner than that. IMO, high 12's probably won't affect power by a measurable amount, but give you more safety cushion if things like your injectors lose a tiny bit of flow etc.

                      This whole talk of "making power via a custom tune" is a bit of a crock as long as you have a reasonable tune that gives a fairly flat/rising timing value and you adjust your dizzy on the dyno to peak power.

                      Beyond that you might gain a few HP max with tweaking AFRs or gain a little in an area or two with trying to optimize timing ramp in at high RPM etc.
                      '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                      DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                      http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Def View Post
                        13:1 is ok on an NA car, but I wouldn't go too much leaner than that. IMO, high 12's probably won't affect power by a measurable amount, but give you more safety cushion if things like your injectors lose a tiny bit of flow etc.

                        This whole talk of "making power via a custom tune" is a bit of a crock as long as you have a reasonable tune that gives a fairly flat/rising timing value and you adjust your dizzy on the dyno to peak power.

                        Beyond that you might gain a few HP max with tweaking AFRs or gain a little in an area or two with trying to optimize timing ramp in at high RPM etc.
                        Well, I'm going with a "custom tune" with DIY daughterboard'ed ECU not so much because of making extra power but because it's much cheaper than going with something like a JWT tuned ECU. Plus, it's a lot more fun!

                        Speaking of tweaking AFR's, timing, etc, is there a way to watch/datalog what the OEM KA knock sensor is doing? I've downloaded Nissan Data Scan 1 (www.nissandatascan.com) Consult software for monitoring and logging (which can log AFR's with an aftermarket wideband in conjunction with all OEM parameters) and unfortunately you can't see it's behavior.

                        Which leads me to questions on the OEM timing maps. Rows are RPM, Columns are Load. Here is the "Primary Timing Map" from a 91 KA24DE:
                        Code:
                        	8	16	25	33	41	49	57	60	63	68	71	76	79	87	96	104
                        600	15	15	15	15	14	12	10	8	7	6	5	4	3	3	3	3
                        800	20	20	20	20	18	[COLOR="Red"]144	142	140	138	136	134	134	134	134	134	134[/COLOR]
                        1200	25	25	25	25	[COLOR="Red"]153	153	152	151	150	149	148	147	146	143	143	143[/COLOR]
                        1600	35	35	35	35	[COLOR="Red"]163	160	158	156	154	152	150	149	148	146	146	146[/COLOR]
                        2000	43	43	43	43	[COLOR="red"]169	167	164	162	160	156	153	151	150	150	150	150[/COLOR]
                        2400	45	45	45	45	42	[COLOR="red"]167	165	163	161	159	157	155	154	153	153	153[/COLOR]
                        2800	46	46	46	45	43	40	[COLOR="red"]166	164	162	160	158	157	156	155	155	155[/COLOR]
                        3200	46	46	46	45	42	40	[COLOR="red"]166	164	162	160	158	157	156	155	155	155[/COLOR]
                        3600	43	43	43	42	41	38	36	[COLOR="red"]164	161	160	159	158	157	156	155	155[/COLOR]
                        4000	43	43	43	41	39	37	36	35	[COLOR="red"]162	161	160	159	158	155	152	15[/COLOR]2
                        4400	43	43	43	42	41	39	38	37	[COLOR="red"]164	163	162	161	160	156	152	15[/COLOR]2
                        4800	43	43	42	41	39	37	36	35	[COLOR="red"]162	161	160	159	157	153	152	15[/COLOR]2
                        5200	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	26	24	24
                        5600	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	26	24	24
                        6000	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	27	26	26
                        6400	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	26	26	26
                        And here is the "Knock Map":
                        Code:
                        128	8	16	25	33	41	49	57	60	63	68	71	76	79	87	96	104
                        600	15	15	15	15	14	12	10	8	7	6	5	4	3	3	3	3
                        800	20	20	20	20	18	[COLOR="Red"]16	14	12	10	8	6	6	6	6	6	6[/COLOR]
                        1200	25	25	25	25	[COLOR="red"]25	25	24	23	22	21	20	19	18	15	15	15[/COLOR]
                        1600	35	35	35	35	[COLOR="Red"]35	32	30	28	26	24	22	21	20	18	18	18[/COLOR]
                        2000	43	43	43	43	[COLOR="red"]41	39	36	34	32	28	25	23	22	22	22	22[/COLOR]
                        2400	45	45	45	45	42	[COLOR="red"]39	37	35	33	31	29	27	26	25	25	25[/COLOR]
                        2800	46	46	46	45	43	40	[COLOR="red"]38	36	34	32	30	29	28	27	27	27[/COLOR]
                        3200	46	46	46	45	42	40	[COLOR="red"]38	36	34	32	30	29	28	27	27	27[/COLOR]
                        3600	43	43	43	42	41	38	36	[COLOR="red"]36	33	32	31	30	29	28	27	27[/COLOR]
                        4000	43	43	43	41	39	37	36	35	[COLOR="red"]34	33	32	31	30	27	24	24[/COLOR]
                        4400	43	43	43	42	41	39	38	37	[COLOR="red"]36	35	34	33	32	28	24	24[/COLOR]
                        4800	43	43	42	41	39	37	36	35	[COLOR="red"]34	33	32	31	29	25	24	24[/COLOR]
                        5200	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	26	24	24
                        5600	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	26	24	24
                        6000	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	27	26	26
                        6400	43	43	41	39	37	35	34	33	32	31	30	29	28	26	26	26
                        So I've the highlighted the areas of the maps that correspond with each other. What exactly is going on with this area between the two maps? Is this area where the ECU is in closed loop feedback with knock sensor to make realtime ignition timing changes and everywhere else is what it is?
                        Core4 Motorsports
                        CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
                        S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Yes, adding 128 to the value in the map timing tells the ECU to analyze the knock sensor voltage and apply retard accordingly.
                          NismotronicSA Tuning Package/Powered by TunerCodeSA
                          Speed-Density Tuning for Nissans

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by OnTheChip View Post
                            Yes, adding 128 to the value in the map timing tells the ECU to analyze the knock sensor voltage and apply retard accordingly.
                            Thank you. So the "Knock Map" values I shared is the actual ignition timing advance the engine is running without any knock?

                            Might be beyond what I'm using (NDS1 and TunerPro), but is there a way to see the retarding offset values vs the knock sensor voltage?
                            Core4 Motorsports
                            CLICK HERE for Wilwood FSL6R Radial Bracket & Rear Wilwood BBK GROUP BUY
                            S14 VQ AER Endurance Racing Team

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes, values in the timing map are actual BTDC timing.

                              No, those values are not logged using the stock code in the ECU. NismotronicSA does log those values.
                              NismotronicSA Tuning Package/Powered by TunerCodeSA
                              Speed-Density Tuning for Nissans

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