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  • Hall-effect trigger cam/crank trigger

    I know the name of this thread is silly but i hope to put together useful information for anyone looking to do a DIY setup.

    Mazworks cam trigger kit is a very good kit but the price is bit much consider how much it would actually cost to make a cam/crank trigger kit.

    Hall Effect sensor types

    Omni polar/Bi polar

    These sensors require the trigger wheel have magnets embedded, such as magnets embedded in gear teeth, blade tips, or ring magnets. The advantage of this series, versus other Hall Effect types, is that they can sense longer air gap distances.

    Omni polar

    When a pole of sufficient strength is present north or south the output reaches an on state. When a pole of sufficient strength is not present the output is switched off.

    When designing a trigger wheel for this sensor magnet distance of separation can be tighter because the magnets can be place in a north,south, north... pole configuration

    Bi polar Latching
    Hall-effect latches require a south pole of sufficient strength to turn the output on and a north pole of sufficient strength to turn the output off. The common issue with latching sensors is if they encounter an issue they remain locked in low or high state.

    Magnets to use with Omni polar/Bi polar sensor...
    neodymuim - most commonly used

    Ferromagnetic (low carbon steel gear tooth)

    These sensors incorporate a magnet within the sensor, enabling them to sense ferrous metal as well as magnet targets and can be optimized to detect fine as well as large pitch targets. These require a tighter air gap distance


    These are the two sensor and trigger disk orientation types

    Axial


    Radial



    Commonly used trigger patterns

    "Swedish style sr trigger wheel"

    Two teeth or magnets
    60deg Top-Dead-Center
    60deg Bottom Dead center

    Haltech
    S3 sensor style
    Two magnets positioned 180deg apart

    S4 sensor style
    This configuration uses 3 total magnets. two positioned 180deg apart and a 3rd positioned at 75deg Before Bottom Dead Center


    Aem

    Aem's look for a 24-1 pattern so when working with an Aem it's much easier to target its natural pattern.
    Last edited by konjiki7; 08-30-2012, 06:04 AM.
    Still Got a few part left! Shoot me a PM if you have questions!
    http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5286

  • #2
    Useful Sources
    http://www.spectecsensors.com/html_p...d-sensors.html

    http://www.motec.com/ignition/triggerwheels/

    http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/t...eels-c-48.html
    Last edited by konjiki7; 10-05-2012, 07:57 AM.
    Still Got a few part left! Shoot me a PM if you have questions!
    http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5286

    Comment


    • #3
      You may find a wide variety of hall effect sensors from allied electronics, newark, or any of the other electronic component distributors.

      Comment


      • #4
        Update

        Update!!!

        I choose to use a Honeywell lcz460

        Now to design a disk that will be between the minimum an maximum space between magnets. Find magnets that can with stand 125c+ and have high enough strength to be detected by the LCZ460.

        Now the fun part finding a machine shop to produce a working product.


        After hearing excuses and dealing with tons of BS just to get this simple disk made....

        I called up rich from Xcessive Manufacturing and this was the result. A few other machines shops were unable to get this right even with having every single dimension in hand...



        I didn't find installing the magnets myself to intimidating. I found some epoxy at Autozone which was re-branded Devcon. It was also good for 125c+....

        Stay away from regular jb weld as the bits of metal inside will be pulled out of the epoxy by the magnet and make a huge mess( I have read tons of horror stories about this)

        The magnets had to be installed a two banks away from each other. I allowed the first few to cure completely then installed the remaining few as the magnetic fields from the first few held them in place. The magnets were installed in a north,south pole fashion. This was not necessary but i did so to allow for flexibility in the future for other sensors or applications using this same trigger disk.

        I used a little too much epoxy so i had to sanded it down a little. Here is the finished result.



        Next step was to build a circuit to test the disk out.


        This last bit was done by Advanced Automotive(Great quality work, very straight forward and honest two man shop.)
        Now time to flatten the front of the block.(spot face it)

        The inside of the block was too narrow to fit any machinery inside so die-grinder did the trick of flattening things out.

        Now all that's left is to index the trigger disk.(lock it in place via bolt or dowel pin) I will do this after i finish putting the motor together.
        Last edited by konjiki7; 12-18-2012, 10:05 AM.
        Still Got a few part left! Shoot me a PM if you have questions!
        http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5286

        Comment


        • #5
          why not just buy the aem wheel for 30 bucks.

          Most PM answers: F 17X9 +22, R 17X9 +35

          Comment


          • #6
            You mean the wheel that goes in optical sensor?

            This is an Sr20ve so there are 4 real options.

            1. Buy the sr20ve 20v slim Cas $320-$430
            2.Mazworx cam trigger kit $450+
            3.Crank trigger system $100+
            4. Cam trigger system $ 150+

            The main reason for cam trigger is accuracy.

            Digital signal allows for smoother operation over all rpm ranges.

            Also vibration that effect optical and crank systems are no longer a factor.

            There is also a little wiggle room for slightly tighter timing.

            Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
            Still Got a few part left! Shoot me a PM if you have questions!
            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5286

            Comment


            • #7
              There's no difference between a 24-1 Hall effect setup and a 24-1 disk in a Nissan cas.

              That said, you have to run a P12 cas and beat the crap out of your firewall, and not be able to change cams with the engine in the car as a result. So it's more like a $30 wheel in a $500 cas that can't be removed without the engine coming out.
              '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


              DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
              http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

              Comment


              • #8
                Dang I duno what I'm going to do when I get to that point. I do have the P12 CAS but I really don't want to beat my car anymore than it's already been beating lol.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Bluerb240,

                  Just wait til I'm done with my Kit, Konjiki got a little ahead of himself here and kinda made the wheel I described to him as part of my VE conversion kit.
                  I am SKULLWORKS

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Will do, I'm still a ways off before I even assemble the motor.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Tower240sx View Post
                      Bluerb240,

                      Just wait til I'm done with my Kit, Konjiki got a little ahead of himself here and kinda made the wheel I described to him as part of my VE conversion kit.
                      You told me back in April that you had a kit you were putting together after I made a thread asking what people thought about the 12-1 trigger pattern I was going to use.

                      After I asked about price with adjustable cam gears.... I didn't hear anything for 5 months....

                      I understand we all got stuff to do so I picked up my initial design choose the sensor type i had been eye balling. My wheel is based on the requirements of the sensor I chose ,specs I got from AEM and some adjustments based on the operating environment. So the only thing our designs have in common is they work with AEM.

                      I still have to index my trigger wheel.. I think i might just use a bolt to hold it down once I get my adjustable cam gear in the mail and harmonic crank pulley....
                      Still Got a few part left! Shoot me a PM if you have questions!
                      http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5286

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Anyone have suggestions for a KA setup?

                        I'm running MegaSquirt I (v3.0 board) with the DIY autotune trigger disk (24-2 optical disk) and have been fighting with tach noise for over almost 2 years! I've changed/double checked/modified everything and I'm giving up. I'd like to be able to use the setup with an AEM as well since I may ditch the MS all together.

                        Thanks for the suggestions.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Spoolin6er View Post
                          Anyone have suggestions for a KA setup?

                          I'm running MegaSquirt I (v3.0 board) with the DIY autotune trigger disk (24-2 optical disk) and have been fighting with tach noise for over almost 2 years! I've changed/double checked/modified everything and I'm giving up. I'd like to be able to use the setup with an AEM as well since I may ditch the MS all together.

                          Thanks for the suggestions.
                          Alrighty Im pretty sure I know whats going on, are you still running the factory didtributor ign setup? if so there's your problem.Also what cas wheel do you have? stock, aem, diyautotune etc..

                          If your not running the factory distributor setup, Check to make sure the shielding in the wires for cam/crank signal are grounded. if not then their basically an antenna.
                          The reason I ask about the factory ignition setup is you can get a **** load of electrical noise via the distributor portion of the setup every time the ign coil fires it causes noise in the signal. Nissan figured out the filters in the factory computer. I spent years trying to figure that out.
                          I'm also not an electrical engineer either so I've never been able to figure that out completely.
                          We ended up converting one of the cars to a Ford edis crank trigger with ms3 and it all went away.

                          In my car I'm using an ms2/e v3.03 (diypnp) model and have spent hundreds of hours playing with its noise filters trying to get the noise to go away. Ive got it running well 90% of the time on its noise filters, However 90% of the time isn't good enough.
                          I'm currently slowly ordering parts and doing some due diligence in designing my own custom "race harness" for the car and will be switching to an individual coil pack setup. While retaining the factory cas, just not the distributor portion.
                          I'd run an edis on my car except I don't want to throw off the balance in my rotating assembly,
                          Hope that helped a little.
                          Last edited by Cbettis87; 08-05-2014, 08:56 AM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Cbettis87 View Post
                            Alrighty Im pretty sure I know whats going on, are you still running the factory didtributor ign setup? if so there's your problem.Also what cas wheel do you have? stock, aem, diyautotune etc..
                            ...
                            Hope that helped a little.
                            Well good to know that I'm not alone. I've been working on this thing forever! Are your issues only at high rpm or all the time? Here is the summary of what I've tried:
                            http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=...art=80#p521911

                            To bad not one over there could give me a strait answer. I've used MS in other applications (almost) flawlessly, but its just going terribly for the KA.

                            Yes, I am on stock ignition. Actually I switched to an s13 distributor and coil because it was available and I wanted to rule out those parts as the issue. My problem seems to come in a very specific rpm range (4700-6000) and seems to clear up after that.

                            I am using the diyautotune trigger disk.

                            I guess it wouldn't hurt to try and switch to coil packs/COP since it'd be somewhat of an up grade even if it doesn't work out. Any suggestion of which ones to use? Cheapness is always a good thing

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Spoolin6er View Post
                              Well good to know that I'm not alone. I've been working on this thing forever! Are your issues only at high rpm or all the time? Here is the summary of what I've tried:
                              http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=...art=80#p521911

                              To bad not one over there could give me a strait answer. I've used MS in other applications (almost) flawlessly, but its just going terribly for the KA.

                              Yes, I am on stock ignition. Actually I switched to an s13 distributor and coil because it was available and I wanted to rule out those parts as the issue. My problem seems to come in a very specific rpm range (4700-6000) and seems to clear up after that.

                              I am using the diyautotune trigger disk.

                              I guess it wouldn't hurt to try and switch to coil packs/COP since it'd be somewhat of an up grade even if it doesn't work out. Any suggestion of which ones to use? Cheapness is always a good thing
                              Yeah, Initially I couldn't get it to run at all because of noise, messed with everything over the last few years, it took a couple weeks to get running, couple months, to get running decent, and a couple years to get to where I have tuned most of it out.
                              That problem in itself has severely delayed the progress of my car.
                              Anyways, the problem for me is also in the higher rpm ranges, not exactly same rpm but pretty close 5-5700 ish under load free rev is fine.
                              local ordinance makes it a nightmare to test a car with no registration plates etc. I like my license or I probably could have had it taken care of in a month or so.
                              On the other car that we did a ford edis crank trigger on, It originally had a big accell coil for the distributor, it would start freaking out @3700 ish rpm.

                              As far as coils go, I plan to run the diyautotune ign1 race coils, however at 70ish bucks a piece it gets pricey, I do have a set of new in box msd lsx coils I can sell because I wont be using them(mounting provisions my valve cover is pretty.)
                              Choosing the right coil all depends on your computer, do you have the bosch bip373 ign drivers installed? If so the computer can drive coils without an ign module or built in igniters directly, Some coils have built in igniters (lsx coils) some do not.
                              If the coils you use have built in ignitors they can be driven off a 5 volt signal from ecu plus power/ground.
                              If not you either need a standalone ign module from diy autotune, or install the appropriate drivers in the computer.
                              Do some homework diyautotune has a lot to offer in that dept. Find a coil that fits your needs for control, output, price etc. wasted spark is a good way to go if you don't want to spend a bunch of money,
                              Nn ign4 coil from diy autotune with custom plug wires will work excellently, and you only need 2 drivers, instead of 4!

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