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  • Ka24de-t Oil system for track question

    Hi girls and guys. I'm working on building up a useful platform for track days. Recently I've been dealing with some oil pressure "gremlins" and...

    I'm wondering what all of you with Ka24de and Ka24de-t engines have done to ensure proper oil pressure and cooling?.

    Current pressures:

    With the cooler and thermostat:
    idle cold around 1k= (26-27)
    idle warm @ 950-1K = (10-11) sometimes as low as (8-9)
    WOT @5500= 76; @3K=60

    W/O the cooler and thermostat:
    idle cold is right about @ 1K= (26-27)
    idle warm is around 950-1K= (13-14) then increases up to (17-18)

    -The engine had a GREX/GReddy thermstat oil filter sandwich plate with -10An fittings and lines running to a 19 row and fin cooler; which was mounted upsidown - so air was most likely becoming trapped in the cooler- maybe one of the many causes of oil pressure drop?
    Link to pics of cooler setup:
    http://www.ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic...+build#p512917

    - I have read about shimming the oil pump, but I'm not sure how much the oil pump would need.

    Anyways, just wondering what you are all using with your KA's and whether it would be worth buying a baffled oil pan (using xcessive's oil pan adapter) and/or an Accusump setup.

    .
    "A pessimist thinks the glass is half-empty, an optimist thinks the glass is half-full, an engineer says that glass is twice as big as it needs to be"
    instagram:@cleantune ; Twitter: [email protected]

  • #2
    I recently installed an Accusump for my ka-t, all said and done it was about the price of a baffled pan. I spun a rod bearing at the track a few months ago so I priced everything out and went with the Accusump. I run a Skullworks oil block adapter with -8 lines to an Earl's thermostat and Long oil cooler, the Accusump T's into the thermostat return line and uses -10 lines and fittings. At warm idle I usually have around 18 psi, cruising rpm is 30 psi, and high rpm is around 60 psi.

    Before spinning the bearing I hadn't had any oil pressure issues, the only thing I can think of is that I wasn't a quart over in the sump and I lost pressure for a few seconds at high rpm.

    I don't think shimming the oil pump is necessary, I would just make sure you're a quart over full. Higher oil pressure doesn't mean more oil volume.

    Comment


    • #3
      Shimming the pump only raises your max pressure before the bypass kicks in. Won't help if you're having problems at idle.

      What weight of oil are you running? Might need to go one grade thicker.

      Edit.. from the pics of the install, you had the cooler upside down. Did you ever turn it over so the hoses go out the top? Its pretty important to make that happen since without it, you just have a big air pocket in the cooler and the oil just flows in and out the bottom..
      Last edited by Matt93SE; 02-16-2014, 07:42 AM.
      Originally posted by SoSideways
      I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
      '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
      '96 240SX- The Track Toy

      Comment


      • #4
        It doesn't take much flow to fill up the cooler with the hoses like that. Mine was always filled up once the thermostat opened.
        '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


        DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
        http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for chiming in everyone! I keep hearing more and more stories about KA engine oil starvation on the track (at least in the import world), so this seems like a good place to put a little extra effort into improving upon the engine.

          CHRIS28- Yeah that's about what I'm getting too price wise...
          $baffled oil pan=$Accusump setup.

          So I guess its more of a question of whats more effective? I would think the Accusump would be more beneficial because it is plumbed in after the pickup- so if something happens to the pickup there is a few extra seconds to shut the engine off maybe?; the Pre-oiling feature is pretty nice too.

          So you said you spun a bearing with the accusump hooked up when you were low on oil? Have you had any other difficulties with the setup since?

          I'll definitely make sure I put in that extra quart before any track days. Thanks for posting your oil setup and pressures too; even though all engines are different, the details and numbers really help for a comparison; and yes you're right higher oil pressure doesn't mean more volume, which is leading me to believe shimming the oil pump is not necessary for running a cooler with thicker lines.

          Matt93SE
          -Yes you're right, the oil pressure could only be as high as the bypass valve's set pressure. I've looked that oiling diagram in the FSM multiple times and this keeps eluding my memory haha; Thanks for the reminder. You're talking about the bypass valve near the stock oil filter location, right?

          The engine is currently running Castrol GTX 10W30 oil.

          Haven't flipped the oil cooler upright since those pics were taken; currently running without the cooler. Planning on it in the near future though. Whenever we stop getting this ridiculous arctic polar vortex snow nonsense, I'm planning on running an oil pressure test with the cooler in both upright and inverted positions.

          Def- This is good to know. What size lines were you running with your setup? and were you using anything else with your engine's oil setup?

          .
          "A pessimist thinks the glass is half-empty, an optimist thinks the glass is half-full, an engineer says that glass is twice as big as it needs to be"
          instagram:@cleantune ; Twitter: [email protected]

          Comment


          • #6
            I use -10 AN lines. Was running a Mocal sandwich plate, B&M oil cooler core - pretty standard.


            About to be a GReddy oil filter relocation, Tomei oil block, -10 lines, same B&M core. Eventually will use the water to oil cooler in my C&R radiator I got hanging out.
            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by cleantune View Post

              CHRIS28- Yeah that's about what I'm getting too price wise...
              $baffled oil pan=$Accusump setup.

              So I guess its more of a question of whats more effective? I would think the Accusump would be more beneficial because it is plumbed in after the pickup- so if something happens to the pickup there is a few extra seconds to shut the engine off maybe?; the Pre-oiling feature is pretty nice too.

              So you said you spun a bearing with the accusump hooked up when you were low on oil? Have you had any other difficulties with the setup since?

              I'll definitely make sure I put in that extra quart before any track days. Thanks for posting your oil setup and pressures too; even though all engines are different, the details and numbers really help for a comparison; and yes you're right higher oil pressure doesn't mean more volume, which is leading me to believe shimming the oil pump is not necessary for running a cooler with thicker lines.
              I spun the rod bearing without the Accusump, spinning the bearing is what made me start researching oiling system options. I chose the Accusump setup because I can use it on any future engine, whereas the baffled pan setup would be KA specific. I don't plan on staying KA forever.

              With the Accusump setup you install an in-line check valve right before where the Accusump T's into the system. Depending on which Accusump model you get, when there's a drop in system pressure the Accusump's valve will open allowing oil to flow from the accumulator (the actual Accusump unit) into the engine. The check valve prevents the oil from flowing back through the cooler/t-stat and into the pan via the oil pickup. Once the the pickup becomes submerged again and you build oil pressure from the pump, oil will flow through the check valve, through the T, and refill the accumulator as well as flow through your engine again. The accumulator stores oil at whatever your max pressure is, mine usually stays around 60-80 psi due to cold oil temps. I don't think it's been activated since I installed it, but it's extra insurance for when something does happen.

              Granted if you manage to get a hole in your pan you have a finite time until you run out of oil in the accumulator, but if you experience oil pressure drop on certain corners the Accusump will take care of that until the pickup sees oil again. Pre-oiling is also a plus.

              Sorry for the wall of text, it took me a while to figure everything out myself. If you do end up going with an Accusump I'll go into details about how I wired mine up, that was another headache haha.

              Comment


              • #8
                Def- Cool, thanks! Every little bit of info helps. After some searching, I'm finding that the -10AN sized hose seems like its pretty consistent in most setups; especially since most the Tomei, GReddy/GREX oil filter related products come with this sized fiting. That water to oil setup you seems pretty cool! (pun intended haha). So will you be running a smaller separate radiator just for the oil then?

                CHRIS28- I guess I kind of deserved a "wall of text" after writing one of my own on that last post haha. You mentioned a lot of good points that I have been leaning towards myself; most notably the universal nature of the accusump and the extra safety just in case the pan, pickup or even the if cooler is damaged in any way. Engine specific parts are often a lot harder to sell too, if one were to ever get rid of their baffled oil pan setup.

                ...and yes, absolutely, If you have the time to explain or post a pic of how to plumb in an accusump that would be great!

                -------------

                So far what we've all come up with, just for anyone skimming over pthis thread for a quick answer (feel free to correct me or add anything):

                1. add an extra quart of oil over the normal "full mark"; when determining this "full mark" account for any extra volume in the oil system including turbo oil lines, relocation lines, cooler, etc.

                2. Oil cooler w/ -10AN lines, using a thermostat with either an oil filter sandwich plate, or filter relocation setup.

                3. Baffled oil pan or Accusump setup.

                .



                .
                "A pessimist thinks the glass is half-empty, an optimist thinks the glass is half-full, an engineer says that glass is twice as big as it needs to be"
                instagram:@cleantune ; Twitter: [email protected]

                Comment


                • #9
                  It's a cooler integrated into the "cool" side of the first pass of the double pass radiator. Looks very similar to this (oil cooler is on the left side, the two -12 fittings):



                  So if it works and going to E85 with this drops my coolant temps enough, I can ditch the air to oil B&M cooler I've got and the associated aero drag with running it (which can be pretty substantial).
                  '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                  DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                  http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    ^Its all one piece, that's awesome! This is pretty new to me- so the radiator is like a regular dual pass radiator, but the top half also has tubing for the oil to run through and be cooled by the water too?

                    Yeah, I've heard nothing, but good things about E85. You're right... if the engine's combustion of fuel cooler, the coolant temps should be cooler, which should compensate for a little extra heat that the oil may add to the system. This should also mean lower oil temps too to some extent, right? I guess if nothing else the "heat soak" temp will be reached later than normal with E85; or with a methanol/water injection system for that matter.

                    Also that's a good thing to point out about the aero.
                    "A pessimist thinks the glass is half-empty, an optimist thinks the glass is half-full, an engineer says that glass is twice as big as it needs to be"
                    instagram:@cleantune ; Twitter: [email protected]

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A bunch of fellow racers and builders I know say to stay away from the oil + water stuff, because if you blow the engine you fill the thing with metal and now have to pay $$$ to get the thing cleaned or replace a $600 radiator vs. a $100 oil cooler.

                      They have also made mention of efficiency changes- maybe it can't get the oil quite cool enough or it makes the water run too hot whereas you could play with cooler size, location, and spacing to change your water and oil temps.

                      That said, the RX7 I bought has a bigass radiator with integral cooler and it's considered one of the best-prepped RX7s in the area, so I ASSUME this thing works as intended.

                      Just something to keep in mind.
                      Originally posted by SoSideways
                      I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                      '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                      '96 240SX- The Track Toy

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Yea, I'd be pissed if I paid $600 for it and ruined it, but I paid way way less. Doesn't seem like there's any debris in the cooler, I flushed it out for a good 10 mins and saw nothing come out.
                        '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


                        DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
                        http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          .
                          Interesting, do you guys think an inline oil filter would help prevent this?

                          On a different sub-topic, but keeping with the oiling for the KA engines,
                          has anyone had any experience with either the Moroso or Accusump oil accumulator setups? I could have swore I saw one in a gold/champagne colored s13 hatch with a Ka24de-t in the pages of Modified Mag, I think the SMAX Ka24de-t s14 was running one at the NJ Global Time Attack event I was at few years ago, and maybe 240sxMotoring's s14?




                          (I know Chris had mentioned that he was using an accusump setup, but still waiting to hear back on how he plumbed it in).

                          Does anyone know what is the "pre-charge" before install for? Is it just to pressurize it with oil for first start ups with a new engine?

                          Also, I'm assuming what ever size the oil accumulator tank is (accounting for the lines too), one would have to add this much extra oil to the oil system?

                          .
                          "A pessimist thinks the glass is half-empty, an optimist thinks the glass is half-full, an engineer says that glass is twice as big as it needs to be"
                          instagram:@cleantune ; Twitter: [email protected]

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I have a 2qt one sitting in a box in the garage if you're interested.. bought it used, but never got around to installing it.
                            The recharge part is because there's an air pocket in the back of the tank. If you just plumbed this thing in with no pressure behind it, it would suck all of the oil out of the engine as it filled up since there's no pressure to push the oil back into the engine. Make sense?
                            Originally posted by SoSideways
                            I don't care what color they are as long as they are LONG AND HARD.
                            '04 G35 Sedan 6MT- The DD
                            '96 240SX- The Track Toy

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Matt93SE View Post
                              The recharge part is because there's an air pocket in the back of the tank. If you just plumbed this thing in with no pressure behind it, it would suck all of the oil out of the engine as it filled up since there's no pressure to push the oil back into the engine. Make sense?

                              Kind of. The precharge is typically around 7 psi so that the unit completely empties when it discharges. The inside of the accumulator is 2 oil-tight chambers separated by a piston. On the far side there is an air bladder, that's what you pre-charge with air. The other side is where the oil comes in. When engine oil pressure overcomes the bladder pressure, the oil side of the accumulator begins to fill up and push the piston towards the back of the accumulator, thus decreasing volume and increasing pressure in the bladder. When you change your oil you want to make sure you get all the oil out of the accumulator, so when it's empty there's still that 7 psi in the air bladder to force oil out. Capacity depends on pressure, but the oil capacity is roughly equivalent to the accumulator size.

                              As for how I plumbed mine, I kind of went over it in a previous post. I have a check valve after my thermostat, then a T fitting. One side of the T goes back to the engine, the other side goes to the accumulator. On the accumulator there is a pressure switch and a one way check valve, it allows oil to flow into the accumulator but not out. Once the pressure drops below 35 psi the pressure switch tells the valve to open and oils flows from the accumulator and into the engine. The instructions help out a lot, I'll take some pictures of mine tomorrow if I remember.

                              http://www.accusump.com/accusump.pdf/instructions.pdf

                              Here's the kicker - idle oil pressure is usually below 35 psi. You can buy a switch that activates at a lower psi, but if you get oil starvation at 7k rpm you're not going to get oil from the accumulator until you drop below 10 psi or whatever your lower psi switch is set at. You can also get a manual valve, but I wanted to remote mount the accumulator and didn't want to deal with a manual switch.

                              What I did was a wired the pressure switch to a dedicated toggle switch and to a spare output on my ecu. This way I can flip the manual switch to empty the the accumulator for oil changes, as well as for pre-oiling. Once the engine starts I turn off the switch. The ecu output is essentially an rpm based switch, so the circuit is completed when rpm > 3000. This way if the engine is over 3000 rpm AND the oil pressure drops below 35 psi, the switch opens up the valve on the accumulator and oil flows into the engine. Since the engine idles under 3000 rpm the circuit can't be completed and I don't dump an extra 3 quarts of oil into my pan at idle. (it wouldn't be all 3 quarts, it would be whatever the pump pressure and the accumulator bladder reach equilibrium at, maybe like 2.5 quarts)

                              I'm not sure how other people deal with this issue, I found a few posts about this issue but nobody really seemed to care about it or just suggested getting a manual valve so you can have it closed at idle and open when you're out on track.

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