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  • New member - Introducing myself and questions - coffee maybe needed

    Hello

    A long first post because i wanted to introduce myself a little bit between the lines.

    I'm new in the forum. I'm living in germany and drive since 11 years a Nissan 200SX which has a CA18DET engine. Since around 10 years i'm driving with a Stage 3 setup around. I have mapped the engine myself long long ago which was before the area of Nistune and Horsham Devolopments was also still in the beginning. This was difficult because i had to bableflish japanese websides to get informations. But nowadays with Nistune at the hand i see that i have done it right in the past.

    I only want to pinpoint that i'm an old ager with this car and i have got it before 2Fast2Furious. If i would have known before that i'm tuning a drift car i would have maybe choosed another one because since these days i try to transform it to a grip car without real success.

    Now (I am 45+) the car is not a daily anymore and during a last rebuild i want to try a few things which i skipped in the past because of a daily. I'm not driving in any competition , so i have not to be conform with specific class rules . But i try to be street legal for our Mot/TüV inspection.

    Street legal in the sense that parts should "at least appear" stockish if possible.

    For example.
    Instead of heat reflection bands on the chrome exhaust header i have since years the header tempered and coated ceramic black inside out. In terms of suspension bushes i prefer therefore poly and whiteline adjusters and not obviously , nicer adjustable stuff. If i would come to the TÜV with shiny knuckles all alarm bells would ring otherwise. Call it stealth mode ... but that's the reason why i can't do it really professional like most do it here.

    Because this forums seems to be more professional , i hesitated for a long time to register and ask specific questions.

    But i asked member "Def" here in a PM and he told me i should feel free to ask in a new thread.

    The two major themes which are interesting for me are

    1. S14 subframe swap to S13 chassis
    This theme has more time at hand. Can be next season
    That's my last option to get more grip. I tried nearly everything over the years but nothing really helped. Car has around 300+hp and accelarating out of the corners is one of the biggest problems i have.
    I have read already a lot of different threads covering this theme but i'm puzzled with some slang words. My english isn't perfect unfortunately. But i try and reread it once more before i ask specific questions.

    2. Davies Crais 115 EWP pump swap
    This theme is more important because i want to fix the engine soon.

    I can't find anyone which did it really with a CA18DET engine.
    I think and would like to discuss a little bit about theoretical stuff.
    I'm thinking here in terms like block pressure, steam pockets, local boiling ...

    I have read all and everything about cooling in the last weeks and am pretty unshure if i go a risk here with my engine and an EWP setup. I'm not after the last few horsepower but i like the idea of over-run cooling and better cooling in slow airflow conditions and eliminating ancillary aggregates on top.

    Most fear i have because of our german "Autobahn". Without speed limits on some of these highways it can happen that i occasionally rev the nuts of the car. Because this way i'm longer time and constant on WOT i maybe produce more heat then driving over the Nürburgring track (which i do from time to time) ...

    Are the flow capabilities of such an EWP enough to handle this szenario or is airflow over the radiator here more important as the effective EWP pump flow ?

    A mechanical pump in the area of 7300+ rpm's is maybe pumping too much and is already cavitating. On the other side a EWP will not cavitate but cannot flow as much as the mechanical. On top of that the thermostat should be removed. The reason is clear. The EWP should flow as much
    as possible but it can only produce 0.2 bar pressure at full speed.

    I would choose the newest DV controller with fan control. But taken from the diagramms max flow is reduced to 0.2bar then. Here is my understanding problem. Afaik the higher block pressure is needed to avoid steam pockets and/or local boiling because this happens much later under pressure.
    But removing the thermostat will drop exact this "wanted" pressure.

    In a post of member "Def" i found the hidden hint that this thermostat/feature is in reality a trick to fool the mechanical pump this way that it starts cavitating later. If this is true then pressure is not needed
    for the engine internals (around the combustion area , valves etc )
    If is works like this the pressure would be only good to shift the waterpump "non cavitating" working area higher.

    I have eliminated already the A/C , the mechanical power steering (i swap to a MR2 electrical one) and the waterpump is the last on my list. A custom decent single belt crank pulley is on order already.So it's time to fabricate a backplate for the stock waterpump. (If ...i plan to modify an old waterpump housing)

    It would be really nice if someone could comment my thinkings and maybe point me into the right direction. It has not to be the same engine. I see that here are almost SR20DET engines under the bonnet.
    But the engines are quite comparable ... okay, the CA is a little bit better off course (a try to make some new friends)

    Most Davies Craig EWP reports/reviews are about big block engines which don't rev higher then 5000 rpm's. As seen on their technical graphs pump losses of a mechanical pump are til 3000 rpm very little but rise by the cube from 3000 til 5000 rpm. And CA and SR are reving a lot higher. So pump losses should be even higher.
    - which brings up the theory that the gain which an EWP can offer is higher in a high reving engine ...

    .... if it's up to the task to handle it ??? which is one of my questions.

    Last point. I found a hint that idle is maybe not adjustable anymore when the stock mechanical pump is up and away and this way a constant load is taken from the engine. This could be a problem during the every 2 year exhaust gas inspections here.
    - but maybe adressable over Nistune if AAC valve regulation is at the limits.

    Time to wake up ... I'm at the finish line

    I hope i get some answers.

    kind regards
    Rainer

  • #2
    First question, referring to the suspension issues, how much are you willing to budget, and how determined are you ?

    Comment


    • #3
      Ill reply with more detail later, but the S13 SR ecu has a target idle map that is based on coolant temp. I wouldn't worry about the water pump change causing the idle to become uncontrollable. There will still be a load on the engine via the alternator running thea electrical WP remember.
      '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


      DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
      http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

      Comment


      • #4
        I wouldn't worry about the water pump cavitation issue on a CA18DET, it has a pretty well-designed cast-impeller (not stamped sheetmetal) water pump to begin with and I think it would serve you better than an electric pump setup which is both more failure prone and probably flows less. If you're really worried about cavitation underdriving the water pump pulley should take care of things. I'm assuming you're already running a decent aftermarket radiator?

        Comment


        • #5
          @Z28ricer
          Short answer ... not much in the moment. I can get on my hands on a S14 subframe cheap and it's okay too invest in some offset bushes too.

          But maybe it's better (sorry again somewhat long) to give you a summary of the car.
          I lost my old one during an accident last year and the chassis was warped.
          After a search of one year i got one with a very good chassis (seldom meanwhile) but was blinded from preowner which was 50+ and claims to have 25 years motorsport experience. But he was really a bodger at the end of the day.

          First i was happy because this car was stripped heavily (i got him with 1050kg/2314lbs)
          and now planed only as a fun car i was able to accept many compromises.
          ... but over the time it comes out that the price was high for this. His best friend was the angle grinder and paint so it was not obvious on the first few looks what he all has done. I'm fighting now half a year with all his mess and hope to come on the road in summer. My budget is completly overridden already so i don't think in coilovers or what
          you maybe could suggest.

          So the car will come back to life with my proofed engine and most of my old setup
          parts. I cannot hold his weight because some parts will find their way back into this chassis. But i the goal is to get ready as light as possible.

          For example he removed the ABS ... off course with cutting the loom.
          Since yesterday the loom from my old car is in the car.

          It would be an endless story which hidden secrets i found over the time.
          Another example is the thick metal plate above the crank bearings.
          In his opinion this "overdimensional spacer" is the real culprit for bottom end failures
          of the CA18. So he removed it. Same for the piston cooling canons. Drilling a hole
          in the conrod is better in his opinion .... These kind of mods you cannot see during a
          visit.

          After i had the springs in my hand , only removing the front dampers i decided to
          build the car from ground up , questioning every screw he ever touched. It's too dangerous otherwise. I would have thought that a beginner / youngster maybe work like this but not an "experienced" guy with cups from his hill races in the regal.
          Biggest trap i groped into during my life.

          When i'm ready, the car will come back on the road with the same modifications
          i drove happily over the years in my old S13

          Stage 3 setup, Z32 Airflowmeter, 440 jets, K&N 57i, cold air duct , GT2560 (T28BB)
          30%+ Sachs clutch , S14 Visco differential, H&R springs 29718, Yellow Koni's , 1 step colder sparks Denso Iridium , Walbro pump , Intercooler Volvo, Radiator Hyundai
          Visco fan replaced with dual blowers (again Hyundai matching this radiator)
          19 row mocal oil cooler, Nismo Engine and Gearbox mountings, Strutbraces front/rear,
          Shortshifter ...

          Engine internals:
          First oversize Nissan pistons but much lighter JE wrist pins was my compromise not going forgies. (drove this way 40000+ ... proofed
          CA16 cams (mild) , Lighter stock Flywheel , clutch crank & pulley balanced.
          ACL Bearings. Hasting Rings. Comet HG 1.6mm. Stock conrods but matched ,
          balanced and later shotpeened.

          Exhaust is XS Power header, ceramic coated inside out, cutted at the flange.
          Turbo knee is a 2.5" long splitter followed from a 3" downpipe, tubed / empty cat
          and a 2.5 BN Pipes catback . (this was damaged during the accident and end muffler will be replaced with a Dynomax VT (valve clap thingy) endmuffler with BN Pipes sticker welded onto (for the technical TÜV guys here)

          Because car is empty without any damping stuff i want to try the "Antidrone" feature of this Dynomax VT muffler. Don't know til now if it can do the trick ..

          New in the boat is the Toyota MR2 W3 electrical power steering and
          the ducting for FMIC , servo & oil cooler and also Air Intake are now better then before.
          - i never had thermo problems but now i had the time to do it right.

          Flywheel from his engine is even more light. I think it's the only part of his engine i reuse.
          The rest is better for the garbage.

          Gauges: EGT, Oil temp/pressure, Innovate A/F meter, Boost
          stock ECU with my own stage3 mapping but i switch to Nistune in a second step.
          Have to touch the mappings anyway because some things are changed.

          @hydra
          > I'm assuming you're already running a decent aftermarket radiator?

          It's not a "leightweight" but a very good copper design radiator.

          As FMIC i don't prefer one of these mega big intercoolers. I'm not running more then 1.2bar and i'm happy with my volvo ic with short piping and fast response.

          Otherwise car looks very stock. Because the new one is a facelift i only added the preface lip to his front ...

          @Hydra
          >If you're really worried about cavitation underdriving the water pump pulley should take >care of things

          Problem is that i have already ordered a custom single belt crank pulley in finland
          (couldn't find one here which was able to fabricate such stuff) and this one is in the
          "black coating" process already ... So i have layed the cards for same ratio.
          There's no way out
          On top of that, i think i don't want to underdrive. Underdrive may have side effects
          at pits, idle, slow traffic in the wrong temperature direction.
          Exact to improve these 3 points i think about EWP. Only problem is that i don't
          knew if the EWP can handle the higher load areas.

          I talked to Davies Craig himself for a few days and he is 95% shure that the EWP115
          will do the trick in my car . At the end the exact words were
          " We can theorize til we're blue in the face" ...

          He also says that these pumps are sold meanwhile 40000+ and are in the 12th
          generation since the beginning with meanwhile only 0.1% returns.

          Limited Lifetime:
          Okay, that's a point. But not as a daily, not driven very often, i can get away with it a long time til i reach the typical 6000 hour lifespan (in combination with the new digital pump/fan controller)

          Comment


          • #6
            Why are you so worried about the water pump though? Just underdrive it a bit if you're that concerned about it IMO.


            But if you're dead set on doing the EWP, I don't think you'll have a problem if you can properly control the output (take out the thermostat).

            The static pressure you gain via the water pump is miniscule, and will not affect the boiling point inside the block much. Things are very wide open for the most part, so even though you might generate a few psi (being generous here), it's not that big of a difference.

            I wouldn't worry about autobahn usage - you probably won't be flat out at WOT for that long if you're modded, you'll probably make more power than you really have gearing for.

            It sounds like you want the suspension to be better, so I'd spend money there if I were you.


            The S14 rear subframe is good - I thought it was a positive change on my car.
            '18 Chevrolet Volt - Electric fun hatch for DD duty!


            DefSport Koni Sleeve and Spring Perch Buy!!!
            http://www.nissanroadracing.com/showthread.php?t=5902

            Comment


            • #7
              its always seemed to me that the water circulation is an area where there have essentially been no improvements in a long time. i would think that more people would be interested in some sort of pwm water system which would remove the thermostat and also circulate at a rate based on load/etc.

              we'll see what happens with the new crop of det blocks and ve heads. maybe some folks will come knocking and asking for advice as their mechanical water pumps weren't designed for the 7.5k to 9k rpm excursions they are now experiencing.

              welcome to forums

              Comment


              • #8
                >Why are you so worried about the water pump though?

                No, maybe some kind of misunderstanding. The stock waterpump is proofed and as hydra says the impeller design seems not to be soo bad for a stock car. So i don't have fears
                that it already cavitates. It works fine for years and engine had no temperature problems in the past. I don't rely here on the stock water gauge off course. i have a type-k sensor gauge attached which reports real values.

                This "should" logically bring me to the decision.
                Don't touch it and spent better money into the suspension.
                In this point i agree completly.

                It has some other reasons why i want to shift suspension invests into the next season.
                First the car has to get a TÜV sticker again (licence to drive) which is hard enough.

                >Just underdrive it a bit if you're that concerned about it IMO.

                I explained this above and also with the custom made crank pulley and why i don't like underdriving.

                > But if you're dead set on doing the EWP, I don't think you'll have a problem

                I'm not dead set. Maybe i'm hunting for someone which maybe say.
                "Yepp it's perfect i would do it again all night long" ... Best mod ever ...

                I love the idea to switch the operating temperature with the new controller
                hotter driving to the track .. colder on the track , for example.
                ... and canceling ancillary aggregates and weight, weight, weight.

                I see tuning meanwhile not only under performance aspects.
                If i can optimize an 20+ year old engine here and there a little bit ... why not.
                That's a part of this hobby for me too.

                Switching to elecrtric Powersteering would be otherwise senseless too. Same reasons.
                - there was nothing wrong with the stock steering.

                > if you can properly control the output (take out the thermostat).

                which the new controller should do , exact that's his job ...

                removing the thermostat ... partiell or complete is exact the point where i would like to
                understand the theory / consequences behind. You gave me already some interesting aspects i found in other threads here.

                >The static pressure you gain via the water pump is miniscule, and will not affect the >boiling point inside the block much.Things are very wide open for the most part, so >even though you might generate a few psi (being generous here),
                >it's not that big of a difference.

                That's the kind of information i'm looking for.
                I'm very intersted in all these background informations.

                > you'll probably make more power than you really have gearing for.

                That's why i have the longer S14 diff (pumpkin here !?) already.
                Without it , car would go into the redline in last gear.

                > The S14 rear subframe is good - I thought it was a positive change on my car.

                I study all these threads about this theme in the moment ...

                @Tonto

                > its always seemed to me that the water circulation is an area where there have
                > essentially been no improvements in a long time.

                Taken from an engine cooling document from Audi the thermostat was born 1922 and since then nearly unchanged state of the art ! One of the reasons i'm so interested. It's not to go faster.

                Okay, the turbo isn't maxed out so there is a little bit room for a few kw's more
                I wouldn't fight long with me if there would be a small benefit on top of all my eco strategy with the new mods.

                But i don't want to go for a bigger turbo.
                My personal finish line is around 330-350hp for the internals of my CA.

                > i would think that more people would be interested in some sort of pwm water system > which would remove the thermostat and also circulate at a rate based on load/etc.

                I thought this too .. but there is not really much good info available. Many plans to do and several unfinished projects. Off course some "marketing installations" from the suppliers himself but that's all ...

                > we'll see what happens with the new crop of det blocks and ve heads. maybe some
                > folks will come knocking and asking for advice as their mechanical water pumps
                > weren't designed for the 7.5k to 9k rpm excursions they are now experiencing.

                My rev limiter is onyl rised around 300rpm. So, should be in the tolerance.
                I don't plan to go higher. No solid lifters or valve train mods in my plan.

                > welcome to forums

                thank you

                Comment

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