Continuation of Data Acquisition posts....

[Matt93SE]

Data acquisition can help a lot even when you're just getting started. especially when you're looking to drop seconds, that's where consistency around the whole track can really help. many (most/ all) of us don't have the experience and skills to hit every corner just right every lap. thus comparing overall lap times really doesn't do a lot of good.
What needs to be done with the data acquisition is to go through each corner and look at several laps through the same corner and figure out what you did right. then try to repeat that move in the same corner until you're going as fast as you can through that one. then work on the next corner.

THAT is where simple data acquisition and in-car video can come in. your buddy with a stop watch isn't going to be able to see the things you did right/wrong and remember them lap to lap to lap. Let alone be able to convey all that information back to you after the session.

[racepar1]

Data acquisition can help a lot even when you're just getting started. especially when you're looking to drop seconds, that's where consistency around the whole track can really help. many (most/ all) of us don't have the experience and skills to hit every corner just right every lap. thus comparing overall lap times really doesn't do a lot of good.
What needs to be done with the data acquisition is to go through each corner and look at several laps through the same corner and figure out what you did right. then try to repeat that move in the same corner until you're going as fast as you can through that one. then work on the next corner.

THAT is where simple data acquisition and in-car video can come in. your buddy with a stop watch isn't going to be able to see the things you did right/wrong and remember them lap to lap to lap. Let alone be able to convey all that information back to you after the session.

IMO there is not enough information in a basic data acquisition system to justify it. Speed, RPM, and maybe G-force readings is all you get. Combining that with an in-car camera will give some additional insight, but is not precise enough to REALLY give very much info. As a driver I seem to be very consistent from the video I have at big willow. Every corner of every lap looks exactly the same as far as I can see. Considering that my fast time in that video was good enough for the fastest spec miata race time and second in ITA I would say that I am almost certainly not making very many mistakes that I would need a video or data acquisition to figure out. I know where I need to work on by judging myself against other cars and by how the car feels through the corner. My times are normally within a few 10ths of eachother for the whole session once I really learn the track, excluding traffic laps that is of course. Maybe other drivers can use it more, but I just don't feel that it is going to be worth the money. I can gain more time by spending that money on upgrading the car. When I am shooting for the last second or so that you can get out of the car it may help me out, the rest is pretty much up to the driver IMO. I'll refrain from continuing this conversation from now on. Everyone knows my opinion and there is nothing that you can say that will make me change it. I have formed my opinion based on my years of experience as THE crew for my dad and my own limited experience as a driver. It would be almost impossible for anyone to tell me something that can outweigh all that experience.

[Matt93SE]

IMO there is not enough information in a basic data acquisition system to justify it. .......

We'll agree to disagree then. Notice what I said about driver skill levels there. You are one of the few here that may not fit in that category. The rest of us all have improvement room left in our driving..

[racepar1]

A 300rwhp setup with a T28/GT2560R(used S14/S15 turbo) and some 550cc injectors + Z32 MAF + ROM tune isn't *that* much money compared to how fast it'll make you over any NA KA there is.

I know, I'm starting to REALLY get the itch for more power. I know that power is the primary thing that is holding me back. I can get a couple more seconds through a bit better driving and REALLY setting up the car right, but to get where I really want to go I'm going to need 300-400 WHP. I just don't want a turbo, but an SR is an order of magnitude cheaper and easier then any of the other engines that I REALLY want. The SR just makes so much sense that it is slowly wearing me down. In all likelyhood I will end up with a blacktop SR before the end of next year.

[racepar1]

We'll agree to disagree then. Notice what I said about driver skill levels there. You are one of the few here that may not fit in that category. The rest of us all have improvement room left in our driving..

I don't consider myself a great driver, but I am confident that I have talent. To truly push a car to it's limits it takes a "6th sense" so to speak. IMO some people have it and some don't, and it isn't something that you can learn. Most people here have more driving experience then me to be honest, I only have 6 events (5 trackdays and 1 autocross) under my belt as a driver. Of course I drove canyons for YEARS before I ever went to the track as well. I just think that being raised around racing gives me a step up on most people as far as understanding driving and car set-up goes. I guess it's how fast I progressed over those 6 events that gives me confidence that I actually do have talent. I ran solidly in intermediate group my first ever track event and by my fourth event (one was autocross) I was running competitively with spec miatas in advanced group with azenis on the car.

[Def]

IMO it's easy to get up to speed and drive the line at a reasonable pace after a few events, but the last 10-20% takes quite a while to get.

The more driving I do the more I'm humbled by the guys who are super quick on a new track/car(even an ill handling one) immediately with no issues.

[djsilver]

This is a little off-track for where the discussion has gone but pertinant, I think. For anyone running large horsepower in an S13, I believe you'll be amazed at the improvement in forward traction by switching to an S14 rear subframe. I'm only running 165whp in an N/A KA24DE and found it made a huge improvement in low speed corner exits. If you're running twice that power level (or more), the improvement will extend much farther up the speed scale.

[Def]

I do notice that I seem to have full traction in 1st and 2nd with just NT05's even at 18 psi. No chance once boost hit with the S13 rear subframe. Seems like the car is way more sensitive to weight transfer now though, where as before it was relatively tame with playing with the throttle at say 7/10ths, now if you breathe off the throttle at all it gets very lively. Might be due to no rear sway bar, so that's the next adjustment. Then it's new control arms with roll center adjustment - no more suspension stuff after that!

[racepar1]

IMO it's easy to get up to speed and drive the line at a reasonable pace after a few events, but the last 10-20% takes quite a while to get.

The more driving I do the more I'm humbled by the guys who are super quick on a new track/car(even an ill handling one) immediately with no issues.

For those that have a "knack" for it you are right. Getting up to speed is easy, learning how to squeeze that last bit out of the car isn't. While I do believe that I have some talent, I do not believe that there is any chance of ever becoming a professional driver and I recognize that my technique is still somewhat rough. Really the redline time attack at buttonwillow highlighted that for me. I was severely dissapointed with my driving. I still ran pretty fast for having the stock KA and all, but I was just rattled all day and I'm sure that I left at least 1.5 seconds on the table just from the driving.

[Cory]

IMO there is not enough information in a basic data acquisition system to justify it. Speed, RPM, and maybe G-force readings is all you get. Combining that with an in-car camera will give some additional insight, but is not precise enough to REALLY give very much info. As a driver I seem to be very consistent from the video I have at big willow. Every corner of every lap looks exactly the same as far as I can see. Considering that my fast time in that video was good enough for the fastest spec miata race time and second in ITA I would say that I am almost certainly not making very many mistakes that I would need a video or data acquisition to figure out. I know where I need to work on by judging myself against other cars and by how the car feels through the corner. My times are normally within a few 10ths of eachother for the whole session once I really learn the track, excluding traffic laps that is of course. Maybe other drivers can use it more, but I just don't feel that it is going to be worth the money. I can gain more time by spending that money on upgrading the car. When I am shooting for the last second or so that you can get out of the car it may help me out, the rest is pretty much up to the driver IMO. I'll refrain from continuing this conversation from now on. Everyone knows my opinion and there is nothing that you can say that will make me change it. I have formed my opinion based on my years of experience as THE crew for my dad and my own limited experience as a driver. It would be almost impossible for anyone to tell me something that can outweigh all that experience.

That is really all you need. If you overlay a faster driver, it will show which corners you are overslowing for, if you are cornering as fast, and the the G force readings will show if you are driving smooth, how hard you are on the brakes, and if you are pushing hard in the corner. The key is to do a few skidpad pulls and braking tests so you can see what the car will do at the edge. Then, apply that data to the track to see that you are pushing the car to the edge in all areas. After that, it is timing, and that is something that is really more driver than anything.

I used to think of my Pbox as somewhat of a toy until I saw it in a Speed World Challenge SRT-4 right next to MoTeC stuff. Granted, there is better stuff. The software for Pbox is glitchy, and it can't incorporate a lot of other factors. But it is $500, it sticks to the windshield, plugs into a cigarette lighter, and it will tell you if you are slow, and why.

I don't think I would ever want to be a professional racer. That is just as much a smiley gladhands business outfit and PR fiasco as it is fun driving the cars. It is much easier to make money and spend it racing than to make money racing and spend it elsewhere. And until you get into top level series races, the winnings aren't that much. The money would be in selling your reputation to sponsors and such.

[racepar1]

The key is to do a few skidpad pulls and braking tests so you can see what the car will do at the edge. Then, apply that data to the track to see that you are pushing the car to the edge in all areas. After that, it is timing, and that is something that is really more driver than anything.

Any data you get from a skidpad session is not very comparable to what you get on the track. Steady state handling has little to do with the dynamic handling on an actual racetrack.

I used to think of my Pbox as somewhat of a toy until I saw it in a Speed World Challenge SRT-4 right next to MoTeC stuff. Granted, there is better stuff. The software for Pbox is glitchy, and it can't incorporate a lot of other factors. But it is $500, it sticks to the windshield, plugs into a cigarette lighter, and it will tell you if you are slow, and why.

Sounds like one of the old G-tech things to me. Glitchy software + minimal information + plugs into cigarette lighter + sticks to windshield = TOY...... Have fun with your toy and I'll have fun with mine. Admittedly yours is a pretty cool toy to have though. An instructor or an experienced driver can tell you where and why you are slow as well.

[Cory]

It is 10Hz GPS data. I would hardly call that a toy, or related to G-tech.

I can write MoTeC on the side of it if you want.

[Nissankat]

After using a friends P-box and comparing the data from both his and my runs, I now understand the usefulness of the item. Being able to compare the driving styles and see where our runs differed was very helpful for me. The data can also be imported into google earth so that one can see the path driven overlain on the track map so that lines can be studied. I also like the fact that data can be gathered to see the real gains of improvements to the car or setup changes. I feel that it is a very useful item and it is currently on my list of things to purchase when money permits.

[Your Mom]

racepar1 you sure talk alot for only 5 track days and 1 autocross.

IMO my experience is ****, i started with 300hp.

right now the problem i have is powering out of turns, i need the rear suspension working better than it is. well f all that i need the motor working better than it is right now. lol.

[jmauld]

Can you guys take the data aq. discussion into a different thread?